Scientific Communication with COMPASS mCDR Communication Leaders at OSM 2026

In this special video edition of Plan Sea, host Anna Madlener and Carbon to Sea’s Senior Manager for Communications, Danny Gawlowski, record from the Ocean Sciences Meeting (OSM) in Glasgow, Scotland. They sit down with members of the COMPASS mCDR Communication Leaders program —  Dr. Abigale Wyatt, an ocean modeler from [C]Worthy, Dr. Mariam Swaleh, who leads the Ocean Climate Innovation Hub in Kenya, and Dr. Kohen Bauer, science director at Ocean Networks Canada — to explore what makes science communication effective, where it falls short, and lessons learned for communicating about mCDR research.

The Communication Leaders program, sponsored in part by Carbon to Sea, aims to support mCDR experts with the skills to engage with policymakers, media, funders, and local communities, helping them to foster responsible dialogue across the field. Drs. Wyatt, Swaleh, and Bauer shared how — through a series of virtual trainings and a culminating two-day, in-person workshop — participants collaborated on exercises to clarify their audience, utilize accessible language, and practice realistic scenarios through role-playing stakeholder engagements. These exercises helped  build confidence, expose gaps in existing community engagement practices, and approach forums like OSM with a clearer communication lens. 

Effective science communication is essential to bridge mCDR researchers and their scientific findings with peers in other fields, decision-makers who influence research permitting and funding, and communities where research is happening. Dr. Bauer framed it as a foundational skill operating as the basis for collaboration and learning. A chemist by trade, Dr. Swaleh emphasized the limits of highly technical jargon and noted that accessible language is key to reaching your audience. Dr. Wyatt first saw the benefits from the personal experience of navigating conversations with climate skeptical family members. 

Our guests also discuss challenges in communicating across cultures, different types of stakeholders, highly politicized environments, language barriers, and different levels of scientific literacy. Dr. Swaleh shares part of this difficulty in the way “common” phrases, such as climate change, can experience difficulties in the way they are translated. She recounts how in Kiswahili, the notion of climate change moved from discussing the weather to “patterns of the country.” In this way effective communication requires slowing down, listening first, and building a shared understanding together. 

Thank you to everyone who shared their time to join us in-person at OSM in Glasgow, it was an incredibly insightful opportunity to connect, reflect, and learn alongside the field’s global community. To learn more about the COMPASS mCDR Communications Leaders program and the insights Drs. Wyatt, Swaleh, and Bauer shared about how they approach communications across different audiences and contexts, watch or listen to the episode through your preferred podcast service and find the entire series here. 

Plan Sea is a semi-weekly podcast exploring ocean-based climate solutions, brought to you by the Carbon to Sea Initiative and the American University Institute for Responsible Carbon Removal.

ACRONYMS/CONCEPTS:

• DOR: Direct Ocean Removal
• EVs: Electric Vehicles
• mCDR: Marine Carbon Dioxide Removal
• MRV: Monitoring, Reporting, and Verificati

Plan Sea is a semi-weekly podcast exploring ocean-based climate solutions, brought to you by the Carbon to Sea Initiative & the American University Institute for Responsible Carbon Removal.

Transcript

00:13 - Introduction at the Ocean Sciences Meeting (OSM)

Anna (00:13) Welcome to a very special in-person recording of the Plan Sea podcast. We're here at the Ocean Sciences Meeting, or OSM as we'll probably call it throughout the episode in Glasgow, Scotland. I am your host Anna Madlener. I'm a Senior Manager for MRV at the Carbon to Sea Initiative. And once again, I am joined by my wonderful colleague, Danny Gawlowski, who is our Senior Manager for Communications who is filling in for my fabulous co-host, Wil Burns, today. Thank you for being here, Danny. And yeah, do you want to share a bit about what we're here to talk about? 

Danny (00:47): Yeah, well, first of all, it is great to be here, and it is a very special episode because it's covering one of the topics that I really care about, science communications. And so we're here because this weekend, in the days leading up to the Ocean Sciences meeting in wonderful Glasgow, we had a gathering of the mCDR communication leaders cohort who had the first time together in person for a weekend of lessons and direct training around science communications. It's a really fabulous program. It's run by COMPASS, a fabulous group that works on increasing the impact of science through training strategic, thoughtful communication leaders. And so, yeah, this weekend follows months of online courses as well. And so today, we're going to meet with three people who are members of that incredible cohort, Abigale, Mariam, and Kohen. Could you go ahead and start with introducing yourselves? 

Abigale (1:52): Hi, my name is Abigale Wyatt. I am an ocean modeler from [C]Worthy, where we're a nonprofit company that's designing software to simulate mCDR. 

Mariam (2:06): Hi, my name is Dr. Mariam Swaleh. I live in Mombasa, Kenya, and I work at the Technical University of Mombasa. And also I head the Ocean Climate Innovation Hub in Kenya. I am a marine chemist, and we just started our research on ocean alkalinity enhancement, but my main role is usually engaging people and communicating about mCDR techniques. 

Kohen (2:42): Hello. Thanks for having me. My name is Kohen Bauer, and I serve as the science director at Ocean Networks Canada, based in Victoria, BC, Canada. We run an ocean-observing facility on all three of Canada's coasts in service of science, society, and industry. 

3:00 - Why Scientists Need Communication Skills

Anna (3:00): Great, thank you so much for being here with us. It's a very busy week, Wednesday evening. We're more than halfway through, yay, but also sad, kind of. I wanna start with some of the basics. As you alluded to, each of you have a background in science and a science-relevant application. I'm curious when and why you decided to spend time focusing on your communication skills. Like was there a particular moment in time where you felt you were trying to talk about your work, maybe about marine carbon dioxide removal, and you felt that you needed to improve communication skills? Anyone can start. 

Kohen (3:46): Sure. Yeah, I'll jump in. I think communication and communicating in general is hard. And it's kind of a pursuit that you're building and learning throughout your whole life and career. And so really for me, it's even more foundational than any one moment. It's just about, you know, personal and professional growth and continuing to build skills and learn from others. And as Danny said, the COMPASS group is amazing and provided so much thoughtful training and we got exposed and we learned from experts that they brought in across the online meetings as well as this weekend in person and so I just feel really grateful to have been a part of it. 

Mariam (4:27): For me, science communication, that's my role currently in the university as well as through the Ocean Climate Innovation Hub, has become very critical because first of all, the university where I work at, its main focus is technology and my role is to promote research within the university. And also through the Ocean Climate Innovation Hub. I work a lot with communities, with other researchers, and we are always communicating about emerging climate technologies, either through workshops or through, sometimes through interviews for, or maybe some documentaries that we do. So you end up talking about science all the time, defining. Your research or explaining the work that you do. So, because that's not my training, I'm trained as a chemist. Sometimes you hit stumbling blocks, you hit walls when you communicate because you're used to being in the labs and now you have to get yourself out there and talk about what you're doing or talk about other people's work in science. Soul. It's critical for my work, I will say. And I think the COMPASS communication program came at a very good time because it's when I needed it for the work that I'm doing currently. And so far it's been great. I've got to learn a lot from the experts and these people gave their all. Their patience, their time, their knowledge, and which I'm very grateful for. 

Abigale (6:28): Yeah, so for me, actually, science communication is where I started from. That was the reason I went into science. I come from a fairly conservative background, a small town, and a family of climate skeptics, to put it lightly. So I really entered science with the intention of trying to build bridges, communicate back to my community where I'm from, and people, you know, that maybe didn't have as much exposure. To some of the climate science, and I really wanted to learn the science so that I could go back and help communicate it back. So doing the COMPASS program is sort of, it's all coming together now. Now I've got the science under my belt, I'm doing the work, and it's time to get back to my intention, which was to take that knowledge and spread it back out and get more people on the same page so that we're all talking the same language. 

7:20 - Global Challenges in Science Communication 

Danny (7:20): That's fantastic. One of the things about this program, and I'll speak for a second and fully disclose at Carbon to Sea, where I work and Anna works, we sponsor this program and we wanted to make sure that it represented and trained folks from all over the world. And so one of the thingS I'm curious about is for you, you represent different corners of the globe and I'm just kind of curious to hear about communication challenges that you see from your own perspectives, from your own places. And AbigaLE, do you want to go first this time? 

Abigale (7:53): Yeah, I think climate science in certain communities already has so much attached to it, the language, the background that comes with it. There's a lot of assumptions once you start talking about the climate, once you start talking about science and chemistry and earth systems. Even though a lot that is beyond people's full understanding, and even mine, It's hard to understand the full Earth system. People hear small tidbits often and start making a lot of assumptions before you're able to explain the whole picture. And so part of, I think, the challenge of communicating science to those types of communities is trying to really get through all of the baggage that comes with climate science, that comes Earth sciences, that comes talking about natural sciences. People have lots of things that they are attached to, good and bad, that you need to make sure you're starting from the same page. And that takes a lot of work, it takes a lotta commitment, it takes lot of listening. And that can be really challenging when you're an expert in the field and you really just wanna go out and spread the word and you have to take a step back and really evaluate where you're coming from. And I think that that can really be quite challenging. 

Danny (9:16): In the US, there are so many issues that have been turned into polarizing issues. Climate is certainly one of them. How do you carry that with you as you try to communicate over a lot of climate science? 

Abigale (9:29): Yeah, like I said, I think the first step is trying to listen as much as you can. It is such a political environment when it comes to trying to, when it comes to climate science, that you honestly don't know who you're talking to and what their opinions are. And it could be a mix of things, you know? So the first of is trying to figure out where you're coming from, build from there and hope that you can find those pieces, those connections so that you can kind of, you know. Have a conversation and exchange some knowledge back and forth, but it's definitely a challenge and it's one that I'm excited that we're getting tools to tackle here with the COMPASS program.  

Mariam (10:13): For me, I think it's more of the language, language changed when climate science came. Terms that we normally used, that we were used to, had to change. And the people we work with most of the time, they don't speak English. So, having to translate that. To a language that is local, sometimes that becomes a challenge, because you're communicating, I'll say, complex things, and then you have to translate, break them down into simpler words and then translate it sometimes to the local language. So sometimes that becomes a challenge. And the good thing, I'll say, because we work with mostly coastal communities and people understand. People know what's going on when it comes to climate change. They understand, they see the impacts or the differences that are occurring in the environment. For example, the fisher communities will tell you about low fish talks, or... People will complain about the weather, changing weather patterns, but will not necessarily connect it to climate change. But now, there's been that change in the way people understand climate change because of the language that is being used currently. It's become a very common term, climate change, and people are now connecting the changes they see in the environment with that. But now when it comes to the science, there's now something different because you need to explain to other researchers or other people in the community that, for example, if you have to talk about mCDR or ocean alkalinity enhancement, those are still new technologies. I'll say, imagine technologies. That have not yet been fully explored in our countries. So it becomes a little challenging because there's that some people will, because of not understanding, for example, what ocean alkalinity enhancement is, they will have that fear of maybe it's something bad, it will affect our environment. So. There are those challenges, but I always say challenges are opportunities. Opportunities to communicate, opportunities to train, opportunities to engage people, and I'll say it's a good thing. 

Danny (13:24): How well does the term climate change translate across the languages that you need to use? 

Mariam (13:30): Okay, it's interesting because when we were growing up, there was no specific word for climate change in Kiswahili, for example, because people would just say, they'll just talk about the weather, which in Kiswahili is hali ya anga, like they'll talk about the weather. Then later on you come and hear about climate change. So people had to, you will hear the scientists or whoever came up with the word. Now it's called, there's a name for it. And it's a very complicated name also. From weather to, now they say, mabadiliko ya tabia nchi. We used to say hali ya anga, like the weather. But now you say, mabadiliko ya tabia nchi. And if you break down those terms, it just means change in the patterns of the country, nchi, country, change in patterns of the countries. So it's a whole big sentence. But so for people who are new to this or they don't know, it becomes difficult. But now everyone knows what it is because people have been talking about it. So yeah, now that's changed. For now, we have to come up with terms for alkalinity enhancements. And I realized the other day, we don't have the terms like pH, we use the word levels of hydrogen ions, so it's the same way in Kiswahili they say kiwango cha hidrojeni, so its levels of hydrogens, because we can't say pH. So there's a lot of work, I feel, that will be done. Especially for countries that do not necessarily speak English. 

Danny (15:58): And so how did you decide how to translate ocean alkalinity enhancement into Swahili? 

Mariam (16:02): At the moment I have not translated, I'm still working on it. 

Danny (16:10): I hope this program helps. 

Anna (16:14): Kohen, I'm curious if you want to maybe sort of bridge us into the conversation around communicating on oCDR in particular and give us a bit of an idea maybe how you think the oCDR field in general is doing at the moment in terms of its communication, like both what has maybe worked well and what needs to improve. 

Kohen (16:40): I’ve seen a lot of growth. So, I think that that is important to acknowledge, right? So, even in the field is growing rapidly and it's really, cool to see people grow and how they're communicating the science, the leading edge science and also how to more broadly translate this knowledge to diverse communities as the OAE community is not just scientists, it is a much more diverse community from coastal communities through to CDR practitioners, to policymakers, to regulators. And so the need to communicate progress on all those fronts is a challenge. So yeah, I also really appreciate talking with colleagues at OSM this week that come from different sectors that think about mCDR, sharing their stories and their experiences. And that is really important to learn from others. Listen, trade ideas about what is working and maybe what's not working. And that really is important for that transparency and to help us all move forward together. And so I really liked that collaborative nature of talking about communicating at large. 

Danny (17:54): And how did some of that translate to your experience in working in Canada or British Columbia in particular? 

Kohen (18:00): Yeah, it's a great question. So, I live on the west coast of Canada on Vancouver Island in Victoria and so, in our ocean backyard, it is the Salish Sea and the ocean is a shared commons and the Salish Sea has a lot of people living and stewarding along its shores and it is a place that a lot people hold really important to their lives and their livelihoods. And so, the concept of mCDR and the emerging technologies, it's really important to meet those different diverse communities, at least in my region, where they're at. Of course, climate change, the climate emergency is like a shared human Earth system scale thing for humanity. We're all in this together, but it also impacts people differently. And so it's really important, I think, to just meet communities and different people where they are at. And it's my job to try and figure that out, and then to communicate the science at the level that we can have a conversation, have a dialog. 

Anna (19:11): And I guess it's also not only the changing climate that is affecting people differently, but also the interventions or solutions that we're working on will affect people differently. So I suppose in the Salish Sea and British Columbia is obviously one area where marine carbon removal approaches are being tested. Can you say a little bit more about how that has been perceived in the community there so far, or how you feel that you transition from talking about climate change to climate solutions?

Kohen (19:55): I'll say that these experiences have been accumulated or my personal experience, I've been involved in a few community focused workshops, both in Washington State and also in British Columbia. And these are workshops organized for community members that came from all sorts of different backgrounds to give an introduction on mCDR and a few mCDR pathways in particular, such as OAE, ocean alkalinity enhancement. I just found it really inspiring actually to hear a diversity of thoughts on these matters, transitioning from talking about the climate at large to talking about how we're going to mitigate further climate change through processes and technologies like ocean alkalinity enhancement. Just getting that diversity of perspectives is the first step. Yeah, from fishermen through to First Nations and Indigenous peoples that live in British Columbia, through to researchers that are hearing this for the first time, and so, yeah, keeping that in mind that, yeah. Even oceanographers may be hearing about Hawaii for the time, so I think you have to be ready to have those conversations, even at the entry level. 

21:24 - Inside the COMPASS Training Program

Anna (21:24): You obviously, we mentioned this a couple of times now, have been part of this program, and as one of the elements of this program, you were in a two-day workshop this weekend. Abigale, I'm wondering if you want to share a bit more about what these last several months looked like, because it was a program that built up towards the workshop and the topics that you covered. 

Abigale (21:47): Sure, so yeah, we started the program almost a year ago, six months, maybe somewhere in there. And we've had, I think, three sets of online workshops where we've gotten to know each other on Zoom and we're talking about some of these issues. We're getting introduced to experts in communication. We got to talk with journalists and we all kind of put in this space where we get to think about communication from home. Because they're virtual meetings, which is kind of nice. And we're also getting to know each other through these virtual meetings. But I will say it was definitely really different to see everybody in person. Definitely felt a whole nother level of effective. But through the online workshops, I think it really kind of gave us a sense of like getting in that head space and really thinking about communication skills a little bit more critically, getting that expert input, starting to craft our messaging and think of it as a critical exercise and something to practice repeatedly. So having that time and space over the last few months to do these virtual workshops, I think was a really great precursor to seeing everyone in person. Because I think once we all got together, we were kind of ready to go. I feel like the workshop was really effective this past weekend. And I do think it was largely in part due to having those opportunities beforehand to even just start getting into it and start thinking about it. And so the organizers did a really great job in that regard. 

Anna (23:15): And in the months ahead of the workshop, were there specific topics that the program was sort of separated into? I mean science communication overall is obviously the topic, but I can imagine that there were maybe rubrics or subtopics that you got into. If anyone wants to take that? 

Kohen (23:37): Yeah, we did some practical exercises that were really helpful. One called the message box, which is a tool to craft a message and identify an audience, identify the goal of what you want to say, your message, and step through organizing your thoughts. And so, we practiced that in the online sessions and then we got another opportunity this past weekend to do it again. Still quite bad at it. It's good. I mean, yeah, I really like practical things like that. And so that was, I'm going to definitely apply that as I move forward. 

Mariam (24:16): And I think one exercise that I really liked was when we were asked to define some of these complex science terminologies into simpler terms or breaking them down. So either you use a synonym or a metaphor to define or to explain these complex terms, like for example, ocean. Our task, I think we were in the same group with Abigale, was to break down ocean alkalinity enhancement into a very simple term, so that even a small child will be able to understand. And we went around so many ideas, even examples of people dancing. But you know after the brainstorming session, we were told to avoid terms like anti-acid or anything that is science-based or using words like lowering alkaline. So we brainstormed, then Abigale came up with an idea that was about storage and the idea was about a parking lot, so maybe she can explain it better. I saw she had a paper about it during the OSM, but the whole idea of saying ocean alkalinity enhancement is a form of storing carbon dioxide in the ocean really made sense. And we went further to explain how it is taught. So I found that to be very good, especially like I said before, especially for people whose first language is not English and you want to explain this to people who are from maybe your community, people who don't really understand the science, that was a very good exercise. 

Abigale (26:35): I'm really glad that you liked that. Yeah, we kind of workshopped it during the online workshop. And I did, I put it on my poster this week. I had a little parking lot showing some cars that were carbon cars. And then they park in the parking lot. And when you do ocean alkalinity enhancement, you add spaces to the parking lot. So all the carbon that is there is there. But you actually just chemically create more space to park more cars. 

Danny (27:01): And how did it go in the poster session? What did you hear from people? 

Abigale (27:05): I think it went over pretty well, yeah. I had a comparison comparing it to DOR, direct ocean removal. And in that scenario, you're reparking cars. You move some cars out of the parking lot. You put them somewhere else. And then you have space to park more cars. And so I think it was a kind of fun comparison. We were just talking cars. I think people understood. It was a pretty simple visual to put on such a technical poster. 

Kohen (27:33): Can they be EVs so that we're decarbonizing society? That was a nerdy joke. 

Mariam (27:42): Yeah, definitely. 

Danny (27:45): I mean, the program went on for months, as we mentioned. What are some of the other things that stood out as sort of unexpected or surprising? 

Mariam (27:56): I think Kohen is right, it's like the message box is the most difficult thing. And for me that was something new, I've never done that before. And the fact that they also went ahead to bring in experts. 

28:19 - Role-Playing and Real-World Application

Anna (28:19): Do you want to say more about the role-playing? You mentioned role-playing. 

Mariam (28:23): Oh yeah. I would say one role of the experts that were brought in was to test us, I will say. I know they were there to help us, but also they were testing us and helping us build our communication skills and our confidence, because I remember during the workshop, when I talking about the message box I had, Inez, who was the expert we were working with, she told me, your message is very good, but your voice is very soft. You need to let your voice come out louder. It gives you more confidence. So I actually used that when we were having a session, there was a session of role playing and actually it was kind of nerve-racking, it was not easy. We've been practicing this message boxes since the online sessions. Now, we were put in real life scenarios and we had to prove that we actually understood what we were taught throughout and we can express ourselves. So the role play I had was, I was speaking to a climate justice organization and they wanted my organization to train their people on mCDR work, and so I had to explain to them why, but no, no, they told me to train the people on ocean-based climate solutions, and I suggested mCDR is a very good place to start, and I had to explain to them why it's important, especially for Africa, because it was an African organization. So especially for Africa, why it is important for people to understand about mCDR, and also why it is important for not just researchers, but also policy makers and any other person who is involved in climate justice. That session, actuallyI did quite well. And I played all the things that I was taught. Obviously there were some corrections. My advisor was very critical, but those were very positive criticisms and I think I feel more confident because now I just don't speak for the sake of speaking, I now know like, if I want, if I'm speaking to someone, what do I want to tell him and how do I want to say it? What roles did you guys have? 

Abigale (31:58): I was speaking to a fisheries representative and was asked how the modeling work I do can tell us something about the ecosystem impacts and whether they'll be safe, whether these operations will be safe if deployed in the real world. And so that was an interesting question for me as a modeler because I work in a modeled world, a simulated world. And so I found it very challenging, actually, trying to explain. The limitations of the modeling work that I do. And then actually as we broke it out into the larger group and we had a discussion around my response, I realized that in fact a lot of the room also didn't know the limitations of the modeling work. And so we kind of had a big group discussion about what are models and how do we use them for mCDR? And it kind of, for me, really opened up this really big opportunity where I see now that even just across the mCDR space where we do have all these different actors, you have the industrial side, you have the political side, you have communities. There's still so much communication that needs to happen across the experts. Where it was interesting because I didn't know that until I was doing the role play, talking to a community member, the fisheries. Then it was obvious that actually all the experts in the room too, there was some disconnect between us about the limitations of my work, how we could apply some of the knowledge that we have from  lab studies and in situ studies, how does that all integrate in a modeling study? There's a big gap there. So it was very enlightening, maybe not what was intended, but I definitely got a lot out of that experience, although it was also a bit stressful, I'm gonna be honest, it was really valuable, but stressful. 

Mariam (33:51): I'm now curious to know how Kohen’s went. 

Kohen (33:55): Yeah, my mock scenario was also an interaction between a fishery sector representative, and the context was that I was associated with a field trial located in a fishery's sector, and they had questions about why that location had been selected for the ocean alkalinity enhancement field trial and so yeah, I would say that the conversations started off a bit spicy in the mock scenario. I think it was coming back to the initial question about being surprised. I think the surprise is related to how realistic potentially some of these conversations that were in the mock scenarios were. And so, the person that I was talking to is actually a fisherman and so very knowledgeable about these topics And so he was able to really press me about a scenario that would definitely happen in the real world. And so it was just very relevant training. And through the conversation, I think it ended, there were five minute mock conversations, by the way. And, so, you know, it feels like an hour while it's happening, but by the end of it I was grateful to reach a commonality with my conversation partner and, yeah, it was pretty cool, definitely a valuable experience. I really enjoyed it, although I agree with Abigail, it was stressful in the moment. 

Danny (35:30): You went pretty quickly from the role playing exercise and the trainings to sitting in this room with Anna and I on this podcast. Like, how are you doing? Are you running through it? I mean, you are here in a real world experience. How are you doing?

Kohen (35:46): Yeah, the hosts are very pleasant people, and no, it's great, yeah, getting to know the cohort, there's just a level of comfort with each other already, and so that just feels nice. 

Abigale (36:03): Yeah, I think it's pretty exciting to be here, but I do think that that speed that you're talking about, like, oh, we just got some training and now here we are. I think that's kind of been all over the sector right now, like mCDR, oCDR, it's just like evolving so quickly, things are changing, the science is moving forward and there is kind of this like time pressure. And so I think I feel that even with the communication here, et's put those skills to use, let's start working, let's do it now, which is great to be moving ahead, but it's also a little intimidating. You're trying to stay ahead of that curve constantly. And so I think as a communicator, that's something also, that trying to keep aware of like everything that's happening across the whole enterprise is it's a lot and it's changing quickly and so that's just something that's exciting, motivating, but also like a bit intimidating, yeah, including being here. 

Anna (37:05): Well, it's intimidating for me. I've never been on the video of the podcast as well. It's going great. I think it's a really important point though that you raised. Sometimes you just want to sit with something right and let it sort of materialize and practice it a little bit and it's, I feel like every day, every week in our line of work is another jump in the cold water sometimes. But yeah, super, super important, I think in particular around the modeling work, I think that's an interesting example. Because as you said, we talk a lot about in this community about communicating to non-mCDR experts, right? But when you explained that and when you sort of accounted how the people who know all about mCDR and are taking this training to talk about MC DR were in the room, they were like, huh, actually, yeah, there are limitations of models that I wasn't quite fully aware of. It's just as a reminder, I think, for how much... Cross-communication we still have to do amongst ourselves. And the models is really relevant. 

Abigale (38:20): Yeah and I think that's one of the things that's excited me about mCDR is that it's intersecting with so many different sectors, with the government, with industry, with I'm at a non-profit, with communities, with fisheries, and it's intercepting with all these things as science does, it always does, but it's doing it in a way that's very like timely and you know we're feeling that pressure, these technologies are happening and so it's I think it's stimulating. Communication in a new way, and it's forcing us to act across sectors in a way that I find really exciting and I hope actually is kind of adopted more across all ocean sciences, you know, the climate sciences in general. But like, I love that like mCDR is causing this kind of like, meshing of different people, you know? And like, even at the weekend, I was honestly surprised at how many different types of people were there from different sectors, that there were fisheries, that we had journalists, that we had social scientists, that we had modelers, we had chemists, the diversity of experience and the diversity expertise was amazing. And also, I mean, speaking of surprises, that I hadn't quite wrapped my head around just how many sectors we're interacting with every day.

Danny (39:50): Well, you went from that right into the Ocean Sciences Meeting, which is thousands of scientists. I'm just curious how this weekend maybe shaped your perception of that. Like, did you listen to things differently? How did it change your perception of all these poster sessions and town halls and presentations that you saw? 

Abigale (40:10): Well, I will say, just a little pitch out to the cohort, I was really impressed with some of the work that they all did. I watched a lot of talks, went to a lot of posters, and you can tell when people care about communication. You can tell that there's just a patience there and an interest there in getting their points across to diverse audiences. And I was like, I watched Kohen's talk. It was great. I thought it was really exciting, actually, to kind of look at talks and posters more critically through that communications lens and to see that it matters, that people care, and I could tell. So that was one thing that I got out of the conference. 

Mariam (40:45): I would say it's true, like after that weekend, when we came to the ocean science meeting, I think I was more critical, especially when people were doing their presentations or they were explaining their posters or I was like, ah this person, why is he speaking like that? I think I was more critical and also for myself when I was communicating to people, I was also careful. Especially if I want to know more about their work, I think because I was critical now I know like, oh, there's a gap somewhere in the way they were communicating. So it's made me ask the right questions, especially. When I went through this, I think this year, there were a lot of mCDR research, especially the posters and some of the oral presentations. So I would ask the right questions because I have that interest now. And apart from that, the other thing that also came to my mind was, You know, it's not, I usually would look at just the science, not bother with the other things. So now I'm also curious to know more about the other types of research which are not necessarily lab-based. There was some very interesting work on communication or frameworks, there was some work on frameworks. So, like Abigale said, this mCDR work is evolving, and it's no longer about the science or the research only, it's now becoming something else. It's now the policy and communication plays a critical role because the scientists need to know how to communicate today. To other researchers, to policy, to community people. So that really was very clear in this OSM meeting, 2026. 

Anna (43:26): You mentioned that you felt that you could tell that others would benefit from communicating differently or maybe changing their perspective. And you mentioned that you then sort of changed what you ask them, which to me sounds like, you know, this program you've gone through trained you to be communication leaders. So surely there is something that you will ideally pass on to others. And that sounded like something you... Immediately put to use at the conference to also take others along and lead others. Do you have other examples or ideas maybe how you can pass on the knowledge that you've now gained through this program that maybe you already noticed during the conference? 

Mariam (44:12): Actually, this was also a surprise to me. When we did future scenarios, like 2050 or 2035, that was my first time looking at mCDR in the future because we always look at mCDR now. What's happening now, what needs to be done, we need to do this, like this. That's usually my conversation when I talk about mCDR. But now, after that scenario, it is a little bit thought provoking because you were told that maybe 2035 now, mCDR work is all over. And then there are these changes that are happening. Maybe communities don't get their rights or the ocean is dying or people are getting sick or there's a lot of these changes. And when I normally discuss or because we do a lot trainings and workshops for early career professionals back home and also for other stakeholders. But we generally just don't talk about when someone asks about, oh, what will happen? We try to convince them that, oh this will not happen, this will work, this. But now after that session, it really changed my perspective and also I also requested for those materials from the trainers that will use them in our coming, in our workshops when I go back home. Because it's a very good way to make people think, like, in case this happens, what should we do? Or what is the best approach? And that is one takeaway. Like, I'm really, I am actually taking the materials. And I'm going to add them to our workshops. So we usually, we're already planning one in the next few weeks when I go back and we'll use those materials to train. And it's also showed me that it's okay to also look at the negative so that you can know how to address it or how to, you know, how to. Work around it or advise people. 

Anna (47:01): And Kohen, I wanted to also come back to you. What surprised you at the rest of the conference after you've had the training now, did it change your perspective on some of the sessions? Or did you feel like you sort of had a moment like Mariam somewhere where you thought, ooh, here I would really like to apply the knowledge gained. 

Kohen (47:22): Yeah, I would say like most of that dialog happens at poster sessions, which is people, you're standing next to the person presenting their work typically and in a large, sometimes it's a crowd. And so I think a large takeaway that I took from the training is how to listen more deeply and how to then use that listening to ask questions in a way that creates a dialog. So I found myself just trying to apply that at the poster sessions too. I mean, I would say maybe I was a little less critical than Mariam. I think it's also important to you to like, again, communication is hard and give people a bit of grace. But then also, I could see like, in my head maybe, things that I would do differently or the takeaway messages as I would walk to the next poster and think about what I just learned or the conversation that I just had. 

Danny (48:27): I'm curious about practicing, is there someone in your life that you practice your communication skills with? Are you like, let me explain OAE to you, whether a pet or a family member or a friend or a neighbor? 

Abigale (48:40): I mean, I have a three-year-old. At the most basic level, you know, if I can try to explain something to him. I have asked him for help on colors, by the way, he has lots of opinions on my figures and which color maps I should use. But, you know honestly, my husband, my son, they do get the brunt of my practice time, could you check this, does this make sense? And really just trying to get that really generalized audience kind of point of view, just like, does the big picture make sense? And I find that that is really helpful. I kind of can't imagine not having anyone to talk to. Although I think, again, the COMPASS program has been really great because I workshopped that parking lot idea, and then it was on my poster, and now I'm talking about it here. So it's provided a lot of opportunities through this program to practice different ideas and practice communication styles. 

Mariam (49:38): Yeah, I have a whole community to practice with, like my community includes our students, and but for people who are not scientists, I'll say my mum, she's always curious about like she will randomly ask me, so tell me, what are you doing in the UK? And so I try to explain to her because I feel it's easier to talk to people who understand the science, but it becomes difficult to people, they're just enthusiastic, they don't necessarily understand the science, so I would say I have lots of people to practice with. Like I said, we do this workshop, so for me it's a space to practice because when we started doing the workshops. I just knew, I think I had just started hearing about mCDR and OAE, I think it was after the first, at the year's OSM 2024, that's when was my first actual exposure to ocean alkalinity enhancement work. And, you know, with time, with reading, and now this training, I think it has really, it will really change how I deliver the workshops. 

Kohen (51:26): Yeah, probably most frequently, my partner, my wife, you know, what did you do today, those sort of conversations and I think they're important. I'll give you a funny anecdote. She's currently writing a children's book and the protagonist is doing a school project about the ocean. And so, at one point, the words carbon sequestration did make it into the book and in a draft. So, at least she heard me one time. I know that. I think those types of chats are pretty cool and, yeah, just a way to talk about the things that you're working on in a non-pressurized scenario. And then typically the people that care about you then want to ask questions and then want to know more and it's just a genuine conversation. 

Anna (52:22): It's interesting. My conversations about my work and the topic are obviously, you know, similar, my partner or friends, and I feel under so much more pressure with them than with anyone else. And I also get terribly impatient. And I'm like, I don't want to underestimate what they're capable of understanding, so I don't want to oversimplify things. But then it's, I never quite find the right middle ground. I'm wondering if, you mentioned earlier that it's important to know who your audience is and what they know and where they're coming from, but I guess I'm wondering, after this training, we talked about the car analogy. How would you now, in simple terms, describe and explain ocean alkalinity enhancement to your partner, to a child, to someone who knows very little or very much about the oceans? You know, there's a lot of different audiences. 

Kohen (53:30): Do you want to do it together? 

Anna (53:35): Try me, I know nothing. Let's test it. 

Kohen (53:39): I would start with the first sentence. I would say, yeah, ocean alkalinity enhancement is a climate change mitigation technique that is currently being evaluated and researched. So I'll start there. 

Mariam (53:56): Okay, I think I'll simplify it further because I'm probably speaking to my child and I'll just say it's a way of,  it is a method that is used to solve a problem that is affecting the world. 

Abigale (54:24): Alright, I'll try to split the difference a little bit. I would say ocean alkalinity enhancement is a way of taking advantage of the chemistry of carbon in the ocean to store more of it there. 

Kohen (54:40): I thought we were gonna build like a Lego set…I liked it. 

Anna (54:45): It's like that game. I don't know if you guys play this, but in Germany we have this game where someone starts with a sentence and then you pass it on, they have to draw it, and you fold away the sentence, and the next person has to write the sentence of the picture that they saw, and then... 

Kohen (55:02): I clearly didn't communicate my approach right here, so. 

Mariam (55:07): Should we try again?

Abigale (55:10): We need more practice, next workshop! 

Mariam (55:14): I think Abigale finished it with the chemistry. I think we just need more time to practice, especially using the big words. And like you said, understanding our audience…If someone has not reached high school, they don't know what chemistry is, so it just needs practice. 

55:50 - Key Takeaways for Better Ocean Science Communication

Danny (55:50): That sounds like really good advice, and just in recognition that you're communication leaders in this field. I wanna know what is the one piece of advice that you would give. This podcast is reaching a lot of folks in the field. What would you advise them to do? What's one thing that you learned from this program that they should know? 

Abigale (56:11): I would say jump into it. Jump into the communication. It's hard, you're gonna mess it up. But just having the opportunity to practice like at the workshop that we had, talking to people from different sectors with different backgrounds, it's really the best way to figure out how to talk about things. I don't think there's any replacement for just practicing it. So talk to people about it. Talk to more people about your work. Talk to people more about the science. Just talk to the people. 

Mariam (56:42): I agree with you. One thing I had when I was joining the program and I think I also spoke about it with the experts I was working with, I had a lot of fear talking about these complex terms like ocean alkalinity enhancement to people who are not necessarily scientists. And I think it's very important to first of all understand the level of the person you're talking to and also try to explain what you're explaining in a simple term. And sometimes that person can be a policymaker or it can be a community member or it can be a fellow scientist. But the point is, it's very important as scientists to be able to explain what we are doing and that's the only way we can make a difference because if we just keep on making science that people don't understand, it does not have impact. It's just data. 

Kohen (58:00): Maybe two things. Slow down. So, that was something that resonated with me, just to take the time, take a deep breath, and just meet the moment, be present. Maybe be yourself, too. Just, you know, be confident in who you are. I think that that sense of being genuine is really like a shared human thing, and so then that creates a connection or foundation. And then, don't be afraid to blunder, to make a mistake. It’s like chess terminology. The experts had a panel, and one of the questions was like, explain a time like you made a mistake or got really caught up in a communication scenario, let's say, and they were very transparent about that and I thought that was really meaningful sharing those experiences and so that's what I would say.

Anna (59:05): Yeah, it's like a level of vulnerability. 

Kohen (59:08): Exactly, exactly, yeah. 

Mariam (59:10): There's also something Kohen said about listening. It's important to also listen. That's a good way to be able to communicate better. And also, it also helps us not to make assumptions that this person probably knows this much, but it tells us to communicate it better. 

Abigale (59:38): Also, I just want to add, like one of the things from the workshop was that we had to own our expertise, maybe in ways that we weren't fully comfortable with, in order to be able to have effective conversations. I felt like a lot of us as scientists were afraid to step too far out of our comfort zone, to talk about things that we don't have specific expertise on. But we are the experts and when you're trying to communicate, share what you know, even if it's not 100% certain. Share what you and just kind of own it. Be the expert, be the knowledgeable person and let people ask you questions even if it’s a little uncomfortable. 

Anna (1:00:17): Wonderful. That's a very positive and encouraging note to end on, the hour kind of flew by. But thank you all so much for taking the time to join us. It's been really fun. I could keep talking for a long time. I have a lot more questions for you. But we'll take that over the beer and the peanuts that are sitting there. I’m so hungry.

Danny (1:00:44): Thank you so much for allowing me to join on this journey that you're on to be among such great communicators and to be here as host. And for everybody listening, for all of you listeners, you'll have Wil back next episode, so please stay tuned.

Anna (1:00:59): As we said last time, Wil will be back! 

Danny (1:01:01): Wil, will, will, will, will, will be back. 

Anna (1:01:04): Danny got caught up on that. 

Danny (1:01:05): I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for the repeat. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. It's been fun. 

Anna (1:01:14): Fantastic.